2007 Season, Game Post

Game 76: Rangers at Tigers

117 Comments

PREGAME: Hopefull it’s a bounce back night, both for the Tigers who played a clunker last night, and Nate Robertson who returns to the rotation after a stint on the DL and a really bad month of May. Nate’s last start was against the Rangers when he allowed 6 runs without retiring a batter. I bet he does better tonight.

The Tigers will face Willie Eyre who was moved from the bullpen to start in place of the injured Vincente Padilla.

For more stats see: TEX @ DET, Tuesday, June 26, 2007 Game Preview – Baseball-Reference.com

Game Time 7:05pm

POSTGAME: I thought I’d go to bed and wake up in a better mood. Didn’t happen. It’s amazing how 2 really poorly played games can wipe out the good will from an 8-1 road trip. The bullpen was awful again, and made worse by fielding gaffes.

Todd Jones and Mike Rabelo had a conference between every single pitch, and still couldn’t get the signs right which is the excuse for the 0-2 fastball to Sammy Sosa. Jones wasn’t supposed to throw the pitch in that spot, but he’d have to throw a pitch at some point. No word on what happened on the Marlon Byrd triple or the Ramon Vasquez single.

117 thoughts on “Game 76: Rangers at Tigers”

  5. Rats, Ken stole my punch line.

    Technical note: Casey would have to accidentally not step on home plate.

  6. All you Monroe supporters, bring it on. I’m officially done supporting the only AAA player on the roster.

    It’s time to make some kind of move there in LF

  8. Fan-tastic. Thank you bullpen. And I know the offense is going to slow down at some point, but for god’s sake, 3 runs of Willie Eyre? That’s just not acceptable.

  11. actually, I forgot about the Inge error. So it’s not all his fault. I retract my previous statements.

  12. Oh my God. Monroe is out of it mentaly. He needs some bench time. Nate doesn’t deserve this.

  15. Hopefully there will be some yelling and screaming in the Tiger clubhouse after this one is over.

  16. Byrdak doesn’t appear to be fooling people anymore. His defense didn’t help, but there were more hard hit balls for the Rangers that inning than the Tigers have had tonight.

  17. Does anyone know how many games the Tigers have won after trailing in the seventh?

  18. Monroe is out of it. His reaction to a few boos and an error and he’s acting goofy.

  22. Ick. Ick. And billfer – two errors and two strikeouts – besides that he gave up the HR and the Sosa double. So not HORRIBLE, but not good either.

    He’s a lefty who throws low 90s with a nice curve…it would be nice to see him have more success.

  23. Well I can’t argue with you after that error, T. Smith. I mean has this man lost all his C-mojo? Ever since I bumped into C-Mo in Cleveland while he was on his way to the clubs immediately after the Pistons game 6 loss, he has been cursed. Not only was he taking part in the Cavs celebration riots, but we had a game the next day at 1:00. His chick was hot though…..But I bet she’s broken up with him since then for Andrew Miller or something.

  26. You wonder if there is something off the field which is distracting Monroe.

  27. You wonder if there is something off the field which is distracting Monroe.

  32. I think Monroe is probably the insecure type who can’t take criticism. Obviously, he’s disappointed with his hitting and I think that’s probably what’s driving him nuts.

  37. Well scoring 3 off Otsuka definitely makes up for only scoring 3 off Willie-freaking-Eyre.

  40. If memory serves me correctly, Monroe was arrested a couple of years back for stealing a belt from a clothing company in Lakeland. What happened?

    Not trying to gang up on Monroe or anything, but I haven’t lived in the US for a while and never heard the end of the story.

  41. Agreed.

    If we are talking about which one of these kids is doing their own “AAA” thing, its Grilli.

  42. PHT in HK:

    In December 2004, he was arrested for trying to steal a belt from a department store in Florida. Police arrested Monroe on Dec. 3rd after they say he wrapped a $29.99 belt around his waist and tried to leave without paying for it. He was released on bond the same day. Monroe agreed to enter a diversion program in order to have the petty theft charge against him dropped.

  43. Please don’t bring that up. It was many years ago and there was alot of gossip but we don’t really know the truth. He’s put the incident behind him.

  44. Quite a game so far. Someone’s gotta be able to reach Monroe. He looks lost. Casey looks much better, and now Craig is the glaring weak spot in the lineup.

    Oh, and I hate the pen. Nate looked pretty good.

    I’d love to see us pull this out.

  45. Mike R. – Thanks for the info!

    Kathy – As I said, I live in Hong Kong and often only hear the first half of stories. I was just wondering. . .

    Nice comeback!

  51. I’d hate to see how hard Andy Van Slyke works these OFers tomorrow. that’s terrible. Monroe and Magglio should be ashamed.

  57. I heard Jones was asked by over 70% of the home run derby participants to be their tosser.

  58. The thing that really is irritating is that corner outfield is probably the easiest position to play in sports. Seriously.

  60. I’m starting to subscribe to the “Jones is not a World Series Championship-type closer” theory.

  62. We’re two weeks from the All-Star break, and Jones has an ERA of 6.23. DD must make a move for a closer. The depressing thing is that we really need 2-3 more reliable relievers beyond a closer at this point.

    I keep telling myself that, from a statistical standpoint, the bullpen can’t continue to be this bad indefinitely. But they’re managing to prove me wrong.

  64. Now that Jones has reached his goal of getting his ERA over 6.00 again, can we get rid of him?
    The worst bullpen in baseball just got worse – 8 runs allowed tonight.

  66. I can’t stand anymore Jones tonight. I am officially completely sick of this rollercoaster. Too many dips and the continual adjustment to the ups have left me a little flat.

  68. Sorry, this talented team is not a WS contender until they clear house in the bullpen. Everybody except Zumaya and Durbin has to go ASAP. Awful!

  69. Yes, I’m guessing if he shuts us down, that deal gets done.

    We can’t count on Jones no matter how much I love him.

  70. I want Magglio to pop one out here, but I don’t want to let this stupid bullpen off the hook and have Magglio become the story.

  73. I know it’s only one game, and I think this team will bounce back (hopefully to split the series against the worst team in baseball). But there are a few issues that are REALLY bothering me after suffering through this game:

    1. Monroe: If we’re making a run for another pennant, Monroe’s gotta go. Trade him, play Thames, ANYTHING. Get him out of there. He kills so many rallies, bounces into too many double plays, and then laughs after the two-run error on top of it… Come on. This isn’t the minor leagues.

    2. Bullpen. It’s still a wreak. While the starting rotation appears to be solidifying, nobody is going to take the Tigers seriously down the stretch if we can’t get past the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings without a bullpen meltdown. What an embarrassment. I don’t know the answer, but DD needs to figure it out.

    3. Jones. PLEASE!!! How many games is he gonna give away before SOMEBODY finally understands he is NOT CLOSER material???? It’s almost comical. It seems every other game he gives up three runs!! And then when he does get through an inning, everybody gives him props, as if getting through an inning here and there qualifies him as a closer? Come on. Release him for all I care.

    Somebody post stats on how many games the bullpen/Jones has blown. It’s extremely frustrating watching the best offensive in baseball fall like this

  74. Indians have scored two to tie their game vs. the A’s in the 9th. This has been a thoroughly unenjoyable evening.

  75. I JUST flipped over to the Indians game when Maggs struck out….and Kelly Shoppach hit a 3 run HR to win the game against the A’s…..bad night all around

  77. 17.31 is our pen ERA over the last two games. I realize that 2 games is a terrible sample size, but the reality is, that most of us on this list watch/follow every game, and the last two games have been more of the norm than atypical.

  78. Indians win on a Pinch-hit, walk-off 3-run HR with 2 out in the 9th.

    thanks alot Alan Embree, Todd Jones, Jason Grilli, Tim Byrdak, Magglio Ordonez, Brandon Inge, and Craig Monroe. This night of baseball was just utterly fantastic.

  80. Okay, granted the pen is not holding up its end of the bench, but it’s not exactly a buyer’s market out there for relief pitching.

    Who should DD go get? At what cost?

  81. This was a very demoralizing loss. I don’t have the opportunity to see post-game interviews, but I’m assuming Leyland is pissed. If not, he certainly should be. He should get on one of his rants after this game, a la April 17, 2006. This is almost an unexceptable loss. This wasn’t a case of one team out playing another… this was a case of the Tigers beating themselves.

  82. We have as good a shot as any to win the WS. Go get Gagne or Otsuka for anything save Maybin/Miller.

    The other option is to just hold the fort down until Zumaya gets here and hand him the closer’s role, though I’m not sure how warm and fuzzy I feel about that.

    Good news is game in 14.4 hours. So we don’t have to wait that long to shake it off. (But even then we’ll have to win on Thurs to win a split with ONE OF THE WORST TEAM IN THE MAJORS. Miserable).

  83. We have as good a shot as any to win the WS. Go get Gagne or Otsuka for anything save Maybin/Miller.

    The other option is to just hold the fort down until Zumaya gets here and hand him the closer’s role, though I’m not sure how warm and fuzzy I feel about that.

    Good news is game in ~14 hours. So we don’t have to wait that long to shake it off. (But even then we’ll have to win on Thurs to win a split with ONE OF THE WORST TEAM IN THE MAJORS. Miserable).

  84. I wouldn’t be as upset, but it’s not like the rest of this homestand is filled with cupcakes. Twins (always give us trouble), Cleveland, and Boston. And if our bullpen is giving up 8 runs to Texas, what are we going to do with Cleveland and Boston’s lineup?

  85. It’s true about having a short memory when it comes to this game. We’ve got to beat these guys tomorrow afternoon.

  87. Some quick bullpen stats after tonight’s game:
    W/L 9-14, ERA over 5.10, WHIP 1.58. Tack on a few blown holds to that W/L record where the starter was charged with a loss and it is even uglier.

  88. Mid August is a LONG time to wait for Zumaya. I honestly don’t know the answer. The problem is, there isn’t really anything out there. Gagne comes at too high a price; as for middle relief, I still like Durbin/Seay as much as anybody on the market, but we still need a solid setup up guy, a solid closer, and somebody to fill Grilli’s role. Grilli is way to rollercoaster to even talk about. Rodney is way to suspect to even talk about. I agree with Tram fan, clean ’em out. If Miner could get healthy, he could be the answer until Zumaya comes back.

    As for Byrdak, I can forgive him after one bad preformance; this is really his first meltdown; although I now officially place him on a short leash. Like Billfer said, it just seems like hitters are beginning to figure him out.

  89. Hey when Maybin is batting .298 with 22 hr’s and 97 rbi’s in 2010 but we haven’t won a title won’t we all think it was worth not considering trading him? I’ll take the 2010 Rookie of the Year over a World Series title any day!!

    Right?

  90. Stephen – I think the issue is it worth mortgaging the future for a shot right now? Other than possibly Sheffield and Rogers, I can’t imagine that many of our regulars will decline in the next few years. So we have a real shot to be a Braves/Yankees organization, and many believe that Maybin is part of that. Gagne is on a one year deal, and while he’s been unbelievable this year, I’m not sure that I’d want to count on him long term in light of his recent injury status.

  91. That said, I’m of the belief that everyone is available for the right deal, and I’d happily package Maybin if it brought Teixera and Gagne this way. A few weeks ago I brought up the idea of Maybin for Otsuka and Gagne, but I don’t think there is room for both of those guys and Zumaya. Though I’m pretty sure that there will be room in Todd Jones’ locker soon.

    Dombrowski seems to have Boras down, maybe we could get Tex and Porcello wrapped up in long term deals at the same time.

  92. I’m not sure if i want to count on Maggs’ knees holding up until 2009 or I-Rod being the first guy to catch 2000 games and remain effective on offensive. You can’t gauge what the future holds; you can gauge that this team needs a bullpen rehaul or we ain’t gonna win it. I’m too tired to make another argument for some kind of multi-team deal that’s gonna lands us at least two top drawer reliever. Mesa got released, Ledezma got traded, Jones sucks hard, and Rodney and Zumaya are out for a long time. The bullpen is in free fall and guess what? This might not be the bottom. Again, I say make an impact trade or say we’re regrouping for 08. I know people will ridicule me for saying this with our current record, but if we wait to the trading deadline we could find ourselves 6 games out by then. I’m telling you, it’s the 06 Red Sox all over again.

  94. Hey, I’ll trade Maybin.

    I think Granderson is going to be a franchise CF – how many of those do you need, really?

    Unless we unload Monroe and move Maybin to left?

  95. Ok, let’s not trade Maybin and just tinker around the edges. Maybe make another trade for a player to be named later or a AAAA castoff. I’m sure that will end well.

  96. How often do you see a team trade their very best prospect for relief help? Not very often. It’s not done because the wins you gain for a guy that’ll throw 60 IP are not worth 6-7 years of good everyday performance. It’s not worth it.

    You can assemble a pen out of spare parts better than any aspect of the game. DD has been looking, but it hasn’t panned out yet. Vic Darensbourg is doing well at AAA, and I’m unsure about why Aquilino Lopez wasn’t given a longer trial. Chad Durbin will be a big help out of the pen. I think they could give him Jones’s job and he’d do fine, not that it’ll happen.

    Don’t get me wrong – I would love to see the Tigers get another useful arm or two for the pen, and everybody is suggesting they are active in trade talks for that. But giving away Grade A prospects for bullpen arms is something stupid organizations do. It’s a Randy Smith move, and I know we’re all thankful that those types of people aren’t running the show in Detroit anymore. We have minor league arms, Monroe, Thames, – these are the kind of chips that could get the arms we need.

    Come to think of it, I remember the Red Sox, long time back, picikng up Larry Andersen for relief help. Traded some 3B prospect, kid named Bagwell. Anyone know what happened to him?

  97. At this point none of our minor league prospects should be considered untouchable. This team is built to win now and its biggest weakness is its bullpen. I’m not saying trade Maybin for Otsuka, but if a top flight closer on a non-contender becomes available I’d pull the trigger. Granderson will be able to handle CF for the next ten years. I’d trade Maybin or Juerggens (sp?) for a guy like Putz. The only problem there is that Seattle is in the thick of the wild card race. I’d trade one of them for Jenks but I doubt the ChiSox will trade within the division. I’d also give either of them up for Isringhausen. STL will probably be willing to deal once the end of July rolls around. I just don’t have any faith in our current bullpen, especially at the back end.

  98. Trading Maybin for relief help is just short-sighted, foolish, and quite frankly, stupid. Maybin and Andrew Miller are the only untouchables in our system.

    Keeping Maybin is completely sensical. When he’s up in around 2009-2010, Granderson will be going on 30, meaning either Maybin or Granderson plays a corner outfield spot (i believe grandy did in the minors, am I correct?) and then Granderson can either be traded and/or walk when he’s looking for the long term deal to lock him up like Andruw Jones/Torii Hunter are looking for.

    What’s next? You suggest the Yankees trade Phil Hughes or Jose Tabata for relief help? The notion of trading your best prospect for some middle relief help that are on 1 year deals is just absurd — no other way to put it.

  99. Putz isn’t getting traded from Seattle. Him and Morrow are untouchable there, no matter how far out they fall, as Putz just signed a 3 year deal to stay through 2009.

    And who are these other top flight closers that’ll be on the market? Matt Capps? Come on now. Even Brad Lidge isn’t worth trading Maybin for.

  100. I can forgive the Inge error, but Monroe’s error is too much. He looked like an eight year old kid who has not figured out how to judge fly balls in the outfield yet. Yuk.
    Anyway, keeping with the conversation, let’s not trade Maybin. I can see him starting center and hitting leadoff, while Granderson playes left field and hits third.

  101. What you do is put Todd Jones in Long Relief and call it a day…

    But seriously we are 45-31, our bullpen has 15 of the losses

    Lets say that our teams bullpen had lost aprox. half the games like Minny (8), we would be 52-24 a seven game improvement and a seven game lead in the AL Central.

    AS OF TODAY

    Besides Bobby Seay, Tim Byrdak and Joel Zumaya (pre-freak-injury) we have no one out in LF that most fans feel semi-comfortable bringing into a game. I think Byrdak will struggle more in the second half due to the league adjusting to him.

    Who says Zoom Zoom will be throwing tripple digets with good control and have good control of his devastating curve right when he returns in August or Sept?

    The fact is that inorder to win, keep momentum on our side and do well in October we need not only 1 but at least 2 strong additions to our releif corps to have a good shot at repeating. Whether Rodney straightens himself out I duno (and wouldn’t bank on it), whether McBride is solid I don’t know.

    Even though Todd did well post ASB last year, he is still the same GD pitcher if not worse. He is not a shut-down closer. If he had a great change-up and some good secondary pitches like Trevor Hoffman I’d say OK , if he had a wicked slider fastball combo like K rod OK. But he doesn ‘t

    Here it is hit it.

    Rights are at a mere .259 BA
    LEFTIES post a .333 BA !!!

    All together he is right under .290 BAA

    Compaired with

    Krod .208
    Papelbon .153
    Putz .135
    Al Reyes (TB) .168
    Jenks .229
    Gagne (who we didn’t go after) .153 hindsight is 20-20 I know
    Heck even the beat up Mariano is at .262

    Jones who cannot afford to allow baserunners with his pitching tactic has almost a WHIP of 2!

    He has been/ will be very very close to blowing nearly every game he comes into…

    Why Leyland left him in forever I have no clue…

    My point is we must have some helperS and it’s too bad Monroe doesn’t normally get hot untill August to get it…

    Maybe a .333 BA in June for Casey could land us something… maybe to the Yanks for Farnsy? just puttin’ it out there and bring up Raburn to let his hot bat sizzle at first. BTW he has almost doubled Caseys production 59RBIS to 30 with a tad better OPS (.956 to Casey’s .747)

    Granted he’s going up against AAA pitching, but Casey has been with a red-hot offense hitting behind Guillen for most of the season…

  102. Comparing someone’s OPS in Triple-A to someone’s in MLB is pretty foolish.

    And there’s a reason Raburn is 4 for 29 with 15 K’s and 2 BB’s in the major leagues; he’s not a major league ball player.

  103. Oh, and Pudge is hitting behind Guillen, not Casey. Pudge has 175 AB’s in the 6th spot and Casey only has 59. He’s got 141 in the 7th spot. So by the time Magglio (86 AB’s with RISP), Guillen (78), and Pudge (77) hit, the bases aren’t too full for Casey.

  104. Hey Mike R, who said anything about trading Maybin for middle relief? I specifically said I’d do it for a top flight closer like Isringhausen or Putz. Yeah, keeping Maybin around should help us this year in our quest to win the World Series (you know—why they play the fargin’ games!) . You gotta give something up to get something. We’re not going to win the World Series with this bullpen being left at status quo. Jones is a long-term problem anyway, not a short term one. We can’t come back with Jones as the 2008 closer either so why not make a move now while we’re still in first place? You get a guy like Isringhausen or Putz (I don’t know how long Izzy is signed for) and you put this issue to bed for at least this year and maybe beyond (depending on contract status). Jones can stay on in middle or set-up relief if the other team doesn’t want him in return. This is way out of control. You can’t survive in the rugged, offensive AL with a closer who’s ERA is north of 6 deep into June. If this was April I wouldn’t be concerned because the sample size would be small. Maybin isn’t going to win us one game this year or next. By the time he gets here we may not be in a position to contend (not saying we won’t be but you never know!).

  105. Stephen is right. Unless we re-tool now, let’s just come out and say we’re re-grouping for 2008. Without the explosive offensive effort thus far, we’d be neck and neck with Minny now. Unless you expect this team to duplicate the 1999 Indians and score 1010 runs (or however many they scored), we’re in an inevitable downspin and are gonna let Cleveland run away with it. And as far as I can see, the offensive is starting to cool off to normal (which is still good, but not best-offensive-of-the-century category), starting with the Braves series and continuing into the first couple games with the Rangers going against very mediocre pitching. At some point you have to face facts: you can’t have the entire team behave like a batting champion with RISP all year long. It’s bound to happen. Normally, it would be no big deal with solid pitching proping up the offensive when the bats cool a bit.

    Forget all the talk about trading Maybin. That would be foolish. In fact, I’ll take it one step further. Why not let him play right now? Put him out in left field and let him learn there. I guarantee we get better production/defense out of Maybin than Monroe. Let the kid play. He’s great. And this team needs him. If we’re really going for a pennant, let your best talent play. All this talk about Monroe getting hot in July, August… rubbish. Monroe’s stock is plummeting by the day. If we can’t package him soon, we’ll probably end up putting him on waivers at some point in the future. We need production from LF now. I know it’s radical idea, but I sure would like to see the lineup with Maybin in the eight hole as opposed to Monroe.

    Any other prospect should not be considered untouchable — packaged with Monroe, Rodney, Grilli, Shelton — (Miner?). The Yankees might even consider talking to us about Riveria for Miner and Rodney. They are so despirate for pitching it would actually be a good trade for them.

  106. Raburn may well be a Mojor League ball player. AAA stats have and do have an effect on how I guy will perform in MLB (read Moneyball or any article on the subject by Bill James). You are going to throw Rayburn under the bus based on 29 abs?? That’s crazy. Monroe, or Thames could be easily replaced by Raburn and the Tigers would have essentially the same ball player. Can we get relief help for them?

    -Sam

  107. At this point, since we have the “luxury” of having 3 left handed relievers, I’d like to see Leyland go a bit unconventional (imainge that?) and go left/right matchups for the 8th and 9th inning (until Zumaya’s healthy, or a legit closer like Gange can be acquired). Save Seay and Byrdak for the tougher left handed hitters, and use a combination of Jones, De La Cruz, and Durbin to get the right handed hitters. If you don’t have a “closer” you have to figure something out instead. Or…. at least try something else out. This by the book managing is getting old, I can understand it if you’re rolling Mariano or Nathan out of the pen, but not Todd F. Jones. Get the six outs however you have to do it, and WIN the game, guys egos need to take a back seat to winning. That’s why they’re here in the first place.

  108. Putz just signed a 3 year deal. He’s not going anywhere. Seattle is commited to him as their closer and then after his 3 year deal is up in 2010, Morrow will step in there in close in Seattle. Even mentioning him as an option isn’t possible.

    I’m not even sure on Isringhausen’s availability; his contract’s up at the end of this year. And as of right now, is he that much of a better option then Eric Gagne? Both prices will be relatively high for both closers and Texas is further out of the race then the Cardinals are in the terrible excuse of a division that is the NL Central.

    Sam: I know all about Triple-A stats and whatnot. I’m not stupid. However, if Raburn was a much better option the last 3 years then Monroe or Thames, he probably would’ve made the club out of spring training in 05 or 06 before Monroe solidified himself in Leyland’s eyes as the everyday LFer. I’m also not writing him off after 29 AB’s.

    I’m with everyone that we need relief help. However, trading your best prospect who is a postion player when you’re strapped for MLB quality position players in the lower levels of the minor leagues are not the way to go about it. And mentioning closers that are unavailable (Putz) and those that are available will be in a bidding war with other teams that need relief help. I’m not overly sure what the correct answer is, but it’s not dealing Maybin, it’s not bringing a 19 year old who hasn’t played above High-A baseball up to start everyday in LF, he’s not Andruw Jones. Andruw Jones was posting 1.024 OPS’ in High-A baseball at the same age as Maybin. He rapidly rose through the system and right now, Maybin’s in no hurry; and neither should be the Tigers.

    I’m just as angry at the bullpen as everyone else, but let’s not cut of the nose to spite the face and be ridiculous about what we want done to the team; a lot of these things are just far-fetched.

  109. This has quickly become a “well, if we can’t solve the pitching, let’s make the offense better” thing.

    The offense is not the problem. IT’S THE BEST IN THE MAJORS THIS YEAR. The relief pitching IS THE WORST. Generally speaking – I’m not sure if it’s actually statistically the worst, but it’s the relief pitching that would have fit right in during 2003.

    So can we please fix that problem before we start worrying about Monroe’s production in LF?

  110. Couldn’t agree more that Monroe is a minor nuisance compared to the 800 lb. gorilla in the room (the bullpen). Bringing up Raburn or Clevlen is not going to help us get the opposition out in the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings. We score plenty of runs. We don’t need a Carlos Lee (for example) in LF. It would be nice, but we don’t need it. I’m still of the mind that this team has a two year window to contend for a World Series title with its current cast of characters. Ordonez, Sheff, Polonco, and Guliien are going to be shells of their 2007 selves after that time. I don’t believe in untouchable prospects, just untouchable proven major leaguers (such as Verlander, Bonderman, Granderson, Ordonez, Guillen, etc.). How many times do these super prospects live up to the hype? If we sit on this bullpen and try to ride it out as is or trade a midlevel prospect for a “meh” reliever, we are going to be fortunate to even get in the AL playoffs. We won’t go far unless our starters are unhittable and the hitters build up six run leads (which doesn’t happen a lot in the postseason).

    If we don’t win a World Series this year or next because we wanted to hang onto a “OMG prospect”, I hope you all have fun rooting for Maybin to win the AL rookie of the year on a possible also-ran team. Its bad enough we did nothing at the trade deadline last year, if we do it again Dombrowski’s genius status will be in question. If it costs us a World Series title to keep this kid, he better be Ty Cobb & Barry Bonds all rolled into one ballplayer. I swear the way everyone talks about this kid, it’ll be a disappointment if he just turns out to be as good as Granderson (who’s pretty effin’ good by the way). I think we (fans & media) are all building this kid up to be something that will almost be impossible to live up to. I’d trade him for a proven closer like Isringhausen or Putz in the blink of an eye. The time to go for it is now, not wait until Maybin gets here and still hope we’re a contending club by 2009 or 2010.

  111. Why exactly would Seattle trade Putz for prospects? They are sitting at 42-33, two games behind Cleveland for the wild card. Barring a total July collapse, they will be buying, not selling at the trade deadline.

    Isringhausen is a more realistic option, his contract expires this year, and he’s got an option for ’08, so he wouldn’t necessarily just be a rental. He does, however, have a no-trade clause. I also doubt he’ll be available — if he’s available at all — until the trade deadline. The NL central is so weak, I’d think that the Cardinals will take as long as possible to decide whether they are out of the race.

    I’m just not sure there are that many “proven closers” that are available.

  112. PUTZ IS NOT BEING TRADED BY A TEAM IN CONTENTION THAT JUST SIGNED HIM TO A 3 YEAR DEAL THIS PAST OFFSEASON!

    Can we get off of JJ Putz now? He’s not going anywhere. Izzy might not be going anywhere from St. Louis. He likes St. Louis, won a title there on a mediocre team, and the NL Central is worst then the NBA Eastern Conference and the NFC North combined.

    Outside of them, there are no closers or GREAT middle relief on the trading block. So to trade Maybin for the good reliever that happens to be the best of the bunch would just be, again, stupid. I have no problems dealing our best prospect arms; we’re strong in pitching. But you don’t deal away your long big time position player that’s still in the minors. I just don’t get this logic. It’s a complete and utter overreaction.

    Oh, and about how much do these prospects work out? I don’t know, highly touted prospects like Verlander, Bonderman, Teixeira, Jeter, Garciapparra, Ryan Howard, Prince Fielder, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Brian McCann, Troy Tulowitzki, etc etc all have worked out. Is the success rate for prospects 100%? No. Could Maybin be a bust? Absolutely. But he’s not showing signs that he’ll be a bust; he’s showing signs that he’ll be a great OFer for more then a decade to come in Detroit. And this is coming from someone who’s complained about him all year long. Ask billfer, him and I have gone round and round on Maybin 4-5 times already.

  113. Mike R:

    I do agree with you on all your points about Maybin. You are 100% right. However, back the truck up a bit. There is whole contingent of commentators who continue to throw the terms “overreaction” and “knee-jerk reaction” out there when alluding to these type of discussions. Over reaction? To what degree of reaction should you take when you have the worst bullpen in the league? Of the 30 major league baseball teams, the Detroit Tiger bullpen ranks last and/or second or third to last in almost every measurable category. For sake of argument, I’m just gonna say the Tigers have the WORST bullpen in the league. The Tiger bullpen is on pace to blow 30 games this year. That’s 2003 territory. (God only knows how many more blown saves you would need factor on top of that total without the stellar offensive support you bring to the party). It’s foolish to say it’s an over reaction to deal with this problem, unless of course you just concede any shot at all at making the post season. If that’s the case, then yes, it is an over reaction to discuss this situation.

    While I absolutely agree with you that you don’t deal Maybin for any possible solution that will not even necessarily improve the pen all that much, I absolutely do not agree that it’s an over reaction to start looking at Maybin as a possible bargaining chip. This pen is atrocious! And it ain’t gonna just fix itself. I happen to be in the camp that Maybin is off limits — deal anybody else including a number of position players who are not untouchable –but I also know DD has to do something.

  114. Outside of them, there are no closers or GREAT middle relief on the trading block.

    I think that this part of Mike’s argument deserves more attention. Gagne is probably the best available arm, but who knows how healthy he’ll be? You certainly don’t want to give up a great prospect in an area in which you are organizationally weak (position players) for a guy who might be a pitch or two away from retirement. I just don’t know what, if any, bullpen solutions are available: bad teams — the type that deal stars at the trading deadline — don’t often have great bullpens.

    Also, Mike, can we take your vociferous objections to trading Maybin as a sign that you are no longer quite so concerned about his line drive rates? Or was that a different Mike?

  115. T Smith, we’re pretty much on the same page. I’m not against making a move; however with the limited market of relief pitching that are on expiring contracts and not really in the upper level of relief pitching, I don’t see the need to deal the only plus plus strength in terms of position player prospects we have. I’m not opposed to a deal. In fact, I want a deal to get done (rumors are Teixeira + Gagne to the Dodgers for James 4Loney + Clayton Kershaw or Chad Billingsley + mid grade prospect like Jonathan Meloan), I just don’t want to grossly overpay with a portion of our system that is VERY weak after maybin. Trade Jurrjens, Trahern, whoever else; only Andrew Miller, Verlander, Bondo are untouchable among all of our arms in our entire system, in my opinion.

    Nate: You got exactly what I was saying.

    To your question, that was me and I’m still concerned. Places have Maybin in top 5-8 among all prospects in baseball and, to me, he’s more high teen’s/low 20’s for me. He’s behind Jay Bruce, well behind Colby Rasmus, and behind Justin Upton from the 2005 draft. Throw in that other OFers ahead of him on my top 25 would be Adam Jones of Seattle and Fernando Martinez of the Mets who’s 18 years old in Double-A posting respectable numbers (18 in Double-A!!!) and I think he’s a very good prospect, but very raw still.

    In his minor league career:
    He’s K’d 191 times in 748 Plate Appearances.
    He’s had GB% of 62% last year in West Michigan and 60% this year (according to his numbers on http://www.firstinning.com). So, .62*445 PA’s give you 275.9 GB’s in 2006 which I’ll round to 276. And .60*303 PA give you 181.8 GB’s this year which I’ll round to 182. 276+182+191/748 PA’s = 86.76% of the time he swings and fails to elevate the baseball.

    For reference, Jay Bruce’s numbers: 61.99% he swings and fails to elevate the ball.

    Colby Rasmus: 53.29%.

    Justin Upton: 59.66%

    And I’ll throw in Andrew McCutchen, a CFer from the same draft: (they didn’t have his GB numbers from rookie ball in 2005 as an 18 year old, so it’s from 06 onward) 65.52%.

    Upton was No. 1 overall
    Maybin was taken 10th overall
    McCutchen 11th to the Pirates
    Bruce 12 to the Reds
    Rasmus 28th to the Cardinals.

  116. I’m afraid that, at the end of the day, DD’s going to look at what’s out there and decide he has to ride it out until Rodney and/or Zumaya gets healthy and cross his fingers that Jones can return to being supbar but managable.

    The good news is that if you’re going to have a glaring weakness, the bullpen is the weakness to have. We’re on pace for 96 wins with one of the worst bullpens in the league. You couldn’t do that with one of the worst starting rotations or hitting lineups in the league.

    It doesn’t sound plausible the way we all feel right now, but bullpen performance is pretty random. Ours has to revert toward the mean at some point.

  117. Kyle: If the Tigers win 90 games without acquiring major bullpen help, I will buy you box seats to a Tigers game in 08. Staying with the status quo is like driving a Honda Accord with a timing belt past 60,000 miles. Could be ok for another week, could be ok for a month, but when it breaks the automobile comes to a complete stop within a hundred yards.
    And Todd Jones is reverting to the mean: the one that had him slated as a journeyman 7th/8th inning guy just 2-3 years ago.

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