2007 Season, Game Post

Game 146: Rangers at Tigers

69 Comments

PREGAME: Hey! It’s bloggers night so the Tigers are sure to do something…maybe. The Tigers have proven time and time again they aren’t big on momentum, so let’s hope they prove it again and bounce back from this afternoon’s shellacking.

The pitching match-up is 2 guys who are fresh off the DL in Brandon McCarthy and Jair Jurrjens. Don’t know what to expect from either, but the Tigers used a whole lot of bullpen today. McCarthy will have a short night, and that’s already been decided.

The Tigers will be sending out their A lineup tonight, which should have gotten some rest today. Meanwhile the Rangers will be tired from swinging the bat and running the bases.

Game Time 7:05

TEX @ DET, Tuesday, September 11, 2007 Game Preview – Baseball-Reference.com

69 thoughts on “Game 146: Rangers at Tigers”

  5. Holy Mary No. 2…we’re actually scoring first inning runs on a pitcher with a 5-8 record and ERA hovering around five.

  6. Hey, that was fun.

    It feels like we scored a hundred runs and had guys running the bases all over the place, yet we’re only up 2. Hm.

  13. More accurately, which EIGHT guys will be used in the rotation at some point in 2008 due to various injuries?

  14. For those of you concerned about the well being of bloggers we are sheltered from the rain.

    And really the Tigers have a lead and 13 comments. Has this blog really just become a therapy session.

  16. After this afternoon’s game, I thought…poor ol Jim Leland: no play for Mister Gray.

    Got my hair dye out and dyed my hair.

  19. Not really a therapy session lol, I think the Tigers are doing very well tonight. They have their A Lineup. Big man Timo is still making a case for LF in ’08. Defense and hitting a good possible leadoff man with lack of power and get Granderson in #3 with Maggs and Sheff #4,5. Anyways hope the bloggers are having a grand time!!

    I dont know bout you guys but I think our prize Miller should be in the minors a full season next year before being brought up in ’09 after Kenny retires. Jair Jurrjens should be #5 next year. With Rodgers presumably back next year (showing that he can still pitch after coming back from the DL). Then Verlander and Bondo still developing (and give Bondo a chance to breath and not have the team thinking he is the ace). They expect too much from him after he was rushed like mad to the Bigs. And then of course dependable Nate in there and we should be set. No way should Durbin be in the rotation. Miner is getting to know his new role so probably a no for him. And then KEEP GRILLI!!, we are set with long relief. While keeping Zoom and Rodney in there. I like Rapada’s stuff but he needs to be seasoned in the Tigers system first. Byrdak and Seay are great left combos, with McBride still developing we have a nice lefty corp along with the injuried Campusano and we have a great relief corp next year. So here is the wrap up:

    2008 Rotation

    1. Kenny Rodgers
    2. Justin Verlander
    3. Jeremy Bonderman
    4. Nate Robertson
    5. Jair Jurrjens

    Bullpen
    LR
    Grilli
    Durbin
    Miner
    MR
    Seay
    Byrdak
    McBride
    Rodney
    Zumaya CL?
    Closer by committee????

    what do you think?

  20. That is the truth, Kyle. I despise the White Sox, and Ozzie is a big reason why.

    The others being the fans, the announcers, the owner, and most of the players.

  22. Intersting ideas, Steve. I seem to recall Boston trying the “closer by committee” approach with very mixed results, so I’m not sure I’d like to see that tried. Zumaya will likely be a closer someday, although the luxury with him now is that you can bring him in for higer-leverage situations since you aren’t saving him for the 9th. I would not be disappointed to see DD sign a closer to replace Jonsey the winter.

    I have no problems with the rotation, Jurrjens will undoubtedly have some growing pains, but he looks like a capable big league pitcher. I completely agree Miller could use a full year in the minors, although I’d be happy if he tossed 100 quality innings or so at that level (provided he was effective). My only question is with Robertson. He can dazzle at times, but routinely struggles to get to the later innings. Not sure who you would replace him with, though. I’m not convinced about Grilli, but Miner looks to be a keeper for MR. I’m comfortable with the lefties, but we’ll need another arm or two for long relief (Tata?). One more power arm for the back end would be ideal, but those guys are hard to find. de La Cruz is a distinct possibility there.

  23. Steve’s rotation looks good. Sign Rogers to a one-year deal. Start Miller at the AA or AAA level and call him up when/if one of our starters gets hurt.

    Zumaya/Rodney in some combination for the 8th and 9th.

    Timo’s absolutely done the most he could with the opportunity he’s been given. But he’s 30 years old and came into this season with a career .266/.305/.379 batting line. I think they have to give Thames his shot at being a full-time player, with Raburn as the fall-back option (and the perfect 4th outfielder).

  24. Just say no to Timo. A corner outfielder with a career OPS under .700? Forget it. Righty Thames has a higher OPS (.761) against right-handers than does lefty Timo (.720), so there’s not even a platoon advantage.

    A hot streak for a 32-year-old does not indicate a sudden increase in hitting ability; it’s a function of small sample size.

  26. Mark,

    Thanks for those ideas, I agree with some of them, like the closer by committee didn’t work for Atlanta last year (before Wickman), so not sure that would work, Zoom needs to stay our 7th or 8th inning man right now. But who is on the table for FA Closers this season it looks VERY THIN relievers out there. So not sure who DD could get. A trade well maybe, would love possible Trades of Saito, Valverde(since Arizona has Wickman), Shields, Isringhasen(sp?). Maybe an interesting trade with the rockies-Tata, De La Cruz for Brad Fuentes and Jeremy Affeldt maybe? Fuentes was a nice closer til his DL stint and Affeldt can be spot starter or nice LR. Hmmm choices……

  28. Pudge has broken out of his two month slump with BATS OF FURY!!!! what is he like 13 for 23 or something like that wow!!!
    GO PUDGE!!

  29. Nice win Tigers 4-1. keeping pace with the streaking Yanks and Indians…..time will tell if we woke up to late or not…..at 10pm we are now 3 1/2 games out of the wild card…

  32. Yea hes made an impression on me. He is my #3 favorite Tiger behind Zoom and Granderson hehe….

  33. He sorta reminds me of Grandy. He’s so mature for his age and seems to have character. A very nice addition to our rotation.

  34. This isn’t going to be popular, but I’m calling it right now. Unless someone throws him a lucrative multi-year deal, Jones will be back for a one year deal worth slightly less than his current deal.

    He’s affordable. You know you’re going to get a solid, if unspectacular, season out of him. Bottom line is that we have bigger problems than Jones.

  35. To be honest Im not a fan of Jones but, he is doable in that closer role. He’s blown 6 Saves but Zoom has blown 3 and rodney 2 so Jones is not in this BS company alone. Doesnt matter what DD does he’ll bring in a solid of not ok closer next year…..

  36. The thing about a closer is that even if he’s an average pitcher, he’ll still save 70-75% of games simply due to the statistic that hitters fail 7 to 7.5 times out of ten.

    BS rates are also helped by the fact that many of the saves allow for the scoring of a run or two.

    You have to really look at 1-2 run save situations, and a closer’s ability to shut down hitters in those situations. I think Jones qualifies as a closer, and I think he does it well most nights.

    The last BS he had we won, too, didn’t we? And I think there was another one before that. So really he’s only cost us like 4 games where he had a save situation.

  37. Jeff,

    I’ve been thinking that too. Given how closers are overrated and the injuries with Zoom and Rodney, that isn’t the end of the world. But I would love to see them add another power arm to back end. You can never have enough.

    Great bounceback tonight, we picked up a half game. Hopefully we get a sharp Verlander tomorrow against their rookie and Toronto can shut down the Yankees to get us to 2.5.

  38. Ozzie on his new contract:

    “When you are winning, you are king. When you’re losing, you are nobody,” Guillen said.

  40. For me, Chad Durbin has done enough to warrant at least starting the year in the No. 5 starting spot.

    Verlander/Rogers/Bonderman/Robertson/Durbin.

    I’d like to shop Robertson to see what we can get back for him.

    As for the bullpen, using Rodney/Zumaya combo for the late innings is far more important then having a “shut down closer.” Closer’s don’t matter if you can’t get to them (see: most of this season).

    Todd Jones is 0-1 with 18 saves in 20 chances, a 3.55 ERA, .254 BA Against and only walking 2.27 per 9 innings. That’s more then acceptable for a closers role. Before that, he appeared in 24 games from the start of the year to June 1st and posted a 1-3 record, 6.04 ERA, 15/19 in saves and a .304 BA Against. More importantly, he was walking 4.439 per 9 innings.

    We give him a lot of flack when he blows a save or Leyland hangs him out to dry (by the way, those numbers are from the day after the Cleveland 12-11 snatch-defeat-from-the-jaws-of-victory debacle), but his problems are only when he walks guys which hasn’t happened much lately. In that time frame I took those stats from (33 games spanning from June 6th through yesterday) He’s thrown 493 pitches, 340 of them strikes for a 68.9% strike ratio. Before that he was at a low 60’s% for strikes.

    And some people always bring out the “he’s great in the clubhouse” in regards to Sean Casey, that same argument should be made for Jones who the players love and back fully in the press. Not that I think that should factor in since I think Team Chemistry is more of a media manufactured excuse because chemistry is only a factor if a team is losing — winning dissolves any problems players may have (see: Ozzie Guillen is a perfect example).

    To sum up: keep the back 3 Rodney/Zumaya (in any order) and then Jones.

  41. Bottom line is that we have bigger problems than Jones.

    yup. Generally, Jones is adequate

    but like I said during the afternoon game, the Tigers’ Winter Project has to be a complete rebuild of the pitching staff

    I like Steve’s start, in the post above, but with a few added notes

    First, I’m VERY concerned about injuries. And this concern has a big impact on how you look at what we can do for the rest of this season and then going into ’08

    too, ability is meaningless without motivation, as the legendary Vince Lombardi so aptly noted. and when you watch a player you can tell if he is putting 100% into the game or just going thru the motion

    FR has ability. no question on that.

    but in the nightcap last night he allowed 2 hits and would have blown the game if Inge hadn’t saved him with that crisp 5-3 double play

    So I like Steve’s thinking, basically, except for my concerns of injuries. and some of that will have to sort out over the winter

    it ain’t “All Good”. We are gonna have to take a close look at the various prospects Jim has had up from minor league helping out. Tata? Vasquez? we are looking for a couple guys who can bring their game up to MLB level…

    I think if Zoom does a little more work with that wicked curve he come up with he can be a devastating closer

    all of this is a pretty Tall Order and that sort of thing has to start with the man in charge and that would be the pitching coach. If it was up to me I’d be thinkin’ make Kenny into Pitching Coach

  42. Great, easy, nice win – which is probably only why there are only 40-something comments. They had the lead and kept it – what? I’m so unfamiliar, unless my stomach is all tied up in knots and I have to keep changing the channel, then it can’t be Tiger baseball 2007, right?

    Here’s hoping we just keep pace with New York til the weekend, and then hopefully HOPEFULLY the Red Sox can take care of the Yanks over the weekend. Seriously Red Sox, what good are you if you can’t beat the Yanks at home?

  43. Closer’s don’t matter if you can’t get to them (see: most of this season).

    Modern baseball may have ended the concept of starting pitcher.

    I still think it is time to re-visit this. let each pitcher go through the enemy batting order one time and one time only, then next man up. this should hold each man in rotation to around 50 pitches instead of 100 and each man should be able to get back in for another turn in about 3 days. this will help the guys to keep sharp. you’ll need at least 3 pitchers a game but ya usin’ that now plus killin’ the starters

  44. While I agree we have a myriad of problems in addition to Jones,I think the addition of a lights-out closer should be the #1 off-season priority.Ideally Joe Nathan,maybe the best closer in MLB(which would have the added benefit of weakening a division rival)or ex-Tiger Francisco Cordero,both of whom were in contract years the last I knew.Most of the richer big-market teams are set at closer,which might make it easier to sign one of them.

  45. Bob– I think Zoom can be that guy. He has the potential, especially with that new wicked curve.

    the real issue is BACKUP: when the starter don’t make a good start we gotta have backup guys we can bring in. Miner, for example, and Durbin has been good in that role. Grilli is supposed to but he ain’t always sharp and that has to be addressed.

    we have to focus on Game Plan. And the game plan is simple: make the batter swing at the pitch. Yeah, maybe he’ll hit it, we got a whole bunch of guys wait’n for a chance to put him away when he does that

    walking the batter is a sin, and walking the leadoff man is unpardonable along with hit batters and wild pitches

  47. Baseball just isn’t set up like that, Bill. Would you really want to pull Verlander with a no-hitter after 50 pitchers and go to another pitcher who gets bombed. No one would be eligible for a Cy Young award or even a win. The starting pitcher has to pitch at least five innings to get a win. The incentives are put in place for a starter to go as long as possible.

  48. Bill A, your plan of a 12-man / 3 inning rotation was tried in the mid 80s by the Padres. It failed miserably. However, a sample size of 1 is as small as it gets, so what does it really mean?

    The problem with that plan is you want your better pitchers facing more batters. That kind of plan would have Jose Mesa facing as many batters as Justin Verlander. That’s not a system I would endorse.

    Fernando’s velocity was down again last night. His first pitch was 91 and I remember saying out loud “uh oh, he doesn’t have a 91 mph pitch, we’re in trouble.” Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

  50. I think either Robertson or Durbin and Thames become part of a trade for Edgar Renteria if the Tigers can’t sign Orlando Hudson. If the price to get a guy like Jon Rauch or Derrick Turnbow (probably not one of those two, but someone along those lines) is reasonable, I would get them instead of Jones and slot Rodney into the closer’s role. If the price is sky high, another year of Jones isn’t horrible.

    If there is a Ted Lilly/Gil Meche type (durable!!!) third or fourth starter available for six to eight million a year, I think I would go that way instead of Kenny Rogers.

    Still can’t decide about Pudge. Looking at the free agent crop, I would lean towards keeping him.

    And a question to anyone who wants to answer: At this moment, would you rather trade Miller or Jurrjens? I think and hope that neither will be traded; I’m just curious what people think.

  51. If I *have* to trade one, and assuming it’s worth it either way, you trade Jurrjens, no question.

    Miller has a much higher ceiling, throws harder, and is left-handed. He absolutely is an unfinished product, but he’s got a little Randy Johnson in him (too early to compare, I know, but that’s the closest I can think of).

    Jurrjens strikes me as a perfect #3, #4 guy. He probably won’t be as good as Verlander, (a true #1) and can’t match Bonderman either (when JB is on his game). He throws strikes, has good movement, and a decent idea how to pitch. I doubt he’ll be the guy that blows anybody away, but he can get you 12-15 wins some years and consistently keep you in ball games. He strikes me as maybe a touch below a John Garland-type.

    And Bill, in reference to your Rodney comment, one of the hits he gave up was a busted bat single. They didn’t hit a ball hard off him. And Inge didn’t “save him”, he got a weak grounder to thrid and Inge made the play. I can live with an outing like that every day.

  52. Kathy– what I’m lamenting here is the shift to “modern” baseball: loading the game to favor the hitters

    look how the old-time Complete Game has suffered — become a rareity

    maybe it ain’t right to think to play the game that way no more

    I dunno, I’m just a fan here, what do I know? nothin’, really but I do like to chitter-chatter on these blogs

    Coach Jim: good note- it’s interesting that that type of rotation was tried

    seems to me though that this sort of roatation is kinda happeing by itself anyway as it is becomming a tougher and tougher struggle to get pitchers through the 7th let alone through the 9th

    alas

    I like the white uniforms for home team and the gray for the visitors and I like the traditional high stockings like Grandy wears

    maybe that’s why they call me “Grampaw” ( or does it have something to do with the 8 grand kids ? )

  53. Kathy– thanks for the note

    the thing I’m lamenting is the loss of tradition in the drift to “modern” baseball. I like the white uniforms for the home team, and gray for the visitors. and the high stockings like Grandy likes

    and of course the drift away from the Complete game and the over-emphasis on hitting~~

    but what do I know~~ I’m just a fan. I do like chatting on these blogs though

    Coach Jim: thanks for the comment. interesting that the short rotation was already tried. I do note we tend to drift in that direction anyway though as it gets tougher and tougher to get a pitcher through the 7th let alone the 9th

    alas, they don’t call me “Grampaw” for nothin’

  54. Mark: he gave up 2 singles in relief and didn’t really look good.

    Inge saved his him, sure did.

  55. Mark– he gave up 2 singles and didn’t look all that good

    Inge saved him with a great throw cuz yer right that wall wasn’t hit all that hard

  56. Bill A,I agree that Zumaya has the POTENTIAL to be a future closer,but given his control issues I think he would benefit by learning to pitch in a set-up role.You’re absolutely correct that a free pass to the potential tying or winning run is one of the cardinal sins of baseball,something that both Zumaya and Jones are too frequently guilty of.
    In 55.3 IP Jones($4.8M)has 28K/21BB/1.46WHIP/.271BAA.
    In 63.3 IP Nathan($5.3M)has 65K/12BB/0.95WHIP/.211BAA.
    A closer like Nathan has half his work done before taking the mound with the other bench knowing the nearly impossible uphill battle facing them and essentially makes it an 8 inning game.A closer like Jones is an entertaining correspondent for The Sporting News.

  57. thanks for the comments everyone — I’m just a fan I ain’t no baseball analyst so what do I know? not much.

    oh well, I have fun chatting on the blog

    and yeah, mark: FR had 2 on and 1 out and wasn’t lookn’ sharp.

    Inge saved his hide with that double play

  58. Mark, the guy had 2 on and 1 out. he wasn’t looking sharp at all. Inge saved him with that double play no doubt

  59. Kathy– I ain’t no baseball analyst — just a fan

    but I can’t help but notice it gets tougher and tougher to get the starter through 7… maybe even through 5 and so we are kinda drifting into the rotation pattern already but with series of 1 inning guys comming on to clean up the game

    Coach Jim: interesting that they already tried that rotation wonder what happened with it

  60. Rocky,

    Rodney threw 14 pitches, 10 strikes. That’s pretty sharp. Also, I don’t get how Inge “saved” Rodney by fielding a weak ground ball and making the play. I would point out Inge had to charge the ball to make the play, as he almost overran the base when he picked it up. Rodney was pitching inside effectively, and caught a bad break on the second base hit (hey, it happens).

    I just don’t see how you can tell me that’s not a good outing. More to the point, picking on Rodney for one outing where he “wasn’t sharp” dismisses how good he’s been since coming off the DL.

  61. For the record, Nathan is as good as it gets as a closer, and I would guess Minny will let him walk (or trade him) so they can re-sign Morneau and Mauer. It’s obviously easier to replace a closer than either one of those guys.

    DD doesn’t like to trade within the division, and you can bet that Terry Ryan would make it expensive to do so should the Tigers inquire about Nathan. If he hits the free agent market, you could see a lot of teams (Cubs, Cardinals, Phillies, possibly the Yankees depending on what happens with Mariano) lining up to bid on him. Hopefully DD would not spend $10-12 million per for a closer when that money could be better used elsewhere.

    As such, I think it’s a longshot that we get Nathan, although I’d love to see it happen.

  62. Mark: I watched him pitch. he wasn’t sharp and that’s why them two guys got hits and got on

    what woulda happen after that if Inge didn’t get him outta that mess?

  63. Well unfortunately if we had to trade for a closer i’d have to deal some of our farm arms and Nate. For Renteria that would be hard maybe Jurrjens & Tata and a mid range prospect? Honestly I didn’t know that Orlando Hudson was on the FA market that would be great. If we can sign him 5 yr/$60mil(bloated FA Market again geez), we send Guillen who looks absolutely great at first over to first Base. But I still have to go with my Rotation and Bullpen I set yesterday.

    Rotation
    1. Rodgers
    2. Verlander
    3. Bonderman
    4. Robertson-Affeldt, if Natey is traded
    5. Jurrjens/Tata/Miner, if Natey is traded

    Bullpen
    Long Relief

    Grilli
    Miner
    Durbin
    Tata-if not a starter

    Middle Relief

    McBride
    Seay
    Rodney
    Zumaya
    Bazardo?
    De La Cruz?
    Fuentes/Valverde etc….(see below)

    Ideally, a trade is made for a CL and SP/LR – Tata/Vazquez/De La Cruz/Miner/Robertson for Valverde(AZ gots the Wickman), Fuentes(COL)/Affeldt(COL), Isringhausen(sp)(STL), or Cordero(not sure too much like Jonesy)(WSH), Saito??(LAD), Shields(LAA).

    That’s my take and iI’ll give Rodney one more year to reach his full potential. If he screws it up then he should be gone or at least traded.

  64. Rocky,

    I watched him pitch as well. I saw a routine fly out to center, a single, a broken bat bloop (this strongly implies Fernando made a good pitch but was unlucky), and a weak grounder to third. Nothing in there strikes me as indicative of a bad outing. He didn’t walk a batter and didn’t go deeper than a 2-ball count. Nobody hit the ball hard off him. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could explain how he was not sharp or provide an example of what “sharp” is. Strike out the side? That’s definitely sharp, but not a reasonable expectation.

    Again, I maintain that Inge did not “save” Rodney or “get him outta that mess”. Rodney induced a weak ground ball, surely you can give him SOME credit for that. Inge made the play, which was relatively routine. If Inge didn’t make the play, is that somehow Rodney’s fault? I didn’t see a screaming line drive in the hole or a wicked grounder down the line, where it’s a much tougher play for Inge. I saw a weak ground ball to third.

    Obviously I have no idea what would have happened if Inge hadn’t made the play and I’m not really sure how that’s relevant.

  65. I’m not sure that Hudson is a free agent this year.Where’s that information coming from?Plus,he is and always has been a second baseman.What’s the thinking here?Polanco to third and Inge to short?Polanco to SS?
    Mark,Nathan wouldn’t add $10-12M to the budget.We simply let Jones walk(which he’s pretty good at delivering from the mound)and pay the market price for one of the premier stoppers in MLB,which is added to the $4.8 that Jones is being overpaid for being a nice guy.

  66. I’m not sure that Hudson is a free agent this year.Where’s that information coming from?Plus,he is and always has been a second baseman.What’s the thinking here?Polanco to third and Inge to short?Polanco to SS?
    Mark,Nathan wouldn’t add $10-12M to the budget.We simply let Jones walk(which he’s pretty good at delivering from the mound)and pay the market price for one of the premier stoppers in MLB,which is added to the $4.8M that Jones is being overpaid for being a nice guy.

  67. Crap that is right Hudson is a 2B hmmmm……oh well was a good shot anyways, do we dare try to go get Uribe or Vizquel. ouch thats not good……..oh well can always dream to get a good SS so we can place the great Guillen at 1B

  68. Was just looking at MLBTR free agent list: If Cordero, Dotel, Gagne or Reyes are available I wouldnt mind any of those guys getting the job…..but need some things to be worked out. Besides that, there is no good 1B or SS FAs. So we are very limited in our picks and options….

  69. Yeah… sorry. I think I turned Orlando Cabrera and Orlando Hudson into one person in my mind. THAT guy is a shortstop. And THAT guy is a six year vet on a 1 year deal, and therefore eligible for FA. Ummm… yeah. Not the first time I’ve done this. It took me five years to keep Chuck Finley and Steve Finley straight. I still think Steve Finley is a pitcher in the very back of my mind.

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