We’ve now heard from all the relevant players involved in the should we exercise Pudge’s option discussion. Mike Ilitch weighed in on Pudge last night:
“Pudge did a big thing for us, putting a face on the franchise,” Ilitch told The Associated Press on Wednesday night. “He’s made a lot of contributions.
“I don’t think it’ll be a tough call, but we’ll see.”
And Pudge’s agent Scott Boras made his statement yesterday as well:
“In this marketplace, if they no longer wanted Pudge, that would surprise me, knowing what Pudge has done for the organization and knowing the loyalty the Ilitch family has for their players,” Boras said.
Boras of course speaks agent, so make of it what you will. He also cited that since Pudge had made the club so much money that he thought it would lead to the “fulfillment of his contract” which of course will be fulfilled either through the buyout or the option. Nevermind that Pudge made a lot of money playing for the club, way more than anyone else was offering at the time and the Tigers essentially bailed out Boras and Pudge.
Dave Dombrowski of course chimed in on Monday with the media and in typical Dombrowski fashion didn’t indicate which way the club was leaning.
And the then final player in this drama, Pudge, spoke of his time in Detroit in the past tense. Of course he was asked to reflect on his time in Detroit, or essentially he was asked to reflect on the past, so I don’t see the use of the past tense as peculiar.
“It was a good roll here. It was very nice. Very good four years.”
So put the pieces together the way you want. I still think he’s coming back, either via the option or an extension.
I think the club will pick up the option, and he’ll bat about the same at this year.
Can Munsen and Shelton still catch?
I personally would like to see the Tigers pass on Pudge and use that money to acquire a big left handed bat, such as left fielder Adam Dunn. With the amount of offense he can provide (40+ HRs in the past 4 seasons), we can live with Romone Santiago’s weak bat along with a light hitting defensive catcher in the order. The Tigers should go cheap on SS & catcher and concentrate their money to bring in a big return in production.
Even with poor production in the 7th, 8th, & 9th spot in the order, the addition of Adam Dunn would make the Tiger’s lineup absolutely scary. They could easily beat-out the Yankees for most runs in a season.
It’s obviously not an open and shut case either direction, so I am glad Dombrowski is taking his time on it.
I never really disliked Boras as much as most people, but his quote there just irks me. The Tigers don’t owe Pudge a dime. There was an attendance jump due to Pudge, sure, but there was a much bigger one due to the TEAM winning a few years later.
Did Pudge not make a guaranteed 40M off the contract he signed when no one else would give him a long term contract? Maybe he owes them one.
Good point. Team success will bring ’em in much more than a big name will. Remember when Retarded Randy thought making a give away trade for Gonzoles would bring ’em in… How well did that work?
Anyway, the past is the past and even if Pudge did bring in return a few years ago, this is about the future. And there is no way to fill the seats in other than to have a team winning. We don’t need a HOFer in the twilight of his career on a struggling team. That won’t cut it.
I originally assumed the option would kick in without question. It makes sense to me that they would sign him given other options. The fact that they are not letting the option kick in more easily even though Illitch seems to want him tells me that Dombrowski may not want him back that badly. I’m still wondering what Knobler knows that makes him feel as if Pudge is almost certain to be gone. He rarely says things like that without a good reason. He has stated in the past that Pudge should be back.
It’s possible there options out there that we don’t know about. Rotoworld mentioned that Hernandez or Schneider might be available in trade. Batimore and Washington are not very shap organizations so something might be possible there.
Just looked up Schneider’s stats. Maybe that’s not such a good idea.
Believe me, there is not much of a drop-off in production between Schneider & Pudge. If his defense is good and he is cheap, then the Tigers would be better off getting him and letting Pudge go.
Rodriguez does have quite a bit more power than Schneider but I understand what you are saying. Pudge still gives you average offense for a catcher but is no longer a good hitter and not an elite defender anymore either.
It’s possible there is a battle between DD and Illitch on the baseball decision versus business decision (Pudge’s name, marketability, etc.) Or maybe DD just want to find out how much money will be left after they sign Pudge.
Most likely DD is actively checking out which catchers are availble in a trade and what their teams might want for them. Makes no sense to decline the option and then see what you can get. I’d bet having illitch come out and say he wants to keep pudge is probably being done for leverage in trade negotiations DD’s having for a catcher somewhere (so DD can say to the other GM ‘listen, my owner wants to keep pudge, I don’t have to make this trade, so sweeten the deal or I walk and go back to a HOF catcher and you get nothing’).
Two of Boras’ bigger “name” clients certainly did not help themselves in their option/contract years: Pudge and Andrew Jones.
I’ll throw this out for kicks and giggles – what about going after Torii Hunter and moving Granderson to left?
I’d bet a good deal of money whoever signs Hunter in 2008 regrets it by the end of 2010, and there’s no reason for that team to be the Tigers.
Besides, Hunter is no longer the fielder Granderson is so there’d be no reason to move Granderson for him.
Oh god no on Torii Hunter. I’m in like with Matt, whoever overpays in the inflated market for Torii Hunter (Rangers?) will regret it. That just screams “terrible contract”. Not to mention that his reckless defense on years of the Minnesota turf hasn’t left him with a body that’s near his age. I think he’ll age fast and his numbers fall HARD.
Hunter is a right handed batter. Tigers need left handed power. Torii aint it.
The Tigers road back started with Rodriguez’ signing.I think there’s a case to be made for maintaining that relationship.I have to admit,though,that others here have been convincing that loyalty is a door that swings both ways.
I’ve never been the biggest Torii Hunter fan.Too inconsistent.Both him and Andruw Jones figure to be the most expensive free agent outfielders this offseason,making me think Aaron Rowand might be cheaper than he otherwise would be.He hits (albeit righthanded),he fields,he’s 2 years younger than Hunter,same age as Jones.He can play center when Granderson sits instead of flails against lefthanders (since Maybin is clearly not ready for prime time),giving the Tigers more flexibility defensively and allowing them to package Thames in a deal for help elsewhere in the lineup (speaking of defense,I haven’t read anything by Bill from Kalamazoo-anyone know if he’s ok?).
There’s not going to be a one-stop solution for the holes we need to fix.
Oh,by the way,f**k the Yankees.
Any wish by Tiger fans to see a center fielder FA addition, such as Torrii Hunter, is utterly ridiculous. We have a center fielder….. Word is that he’s pretty good…. His name is Curtis Granderson….. End of discussion….
Hunters career OBP is .324 no thanks.
Right on Chris. Obviously Hunter is a nice player. If you didn’t have to pay him anything and could plug him in left, I think everyone would want him. But with Gorkys and Camerin waiting in the wings and Maggs and Granderson solidified in RF/CF respectively, the Tiger’s resources would be better spent elsewhere.
I’m with Chris in I have no idea why anyone’s thinking of getting a big name CFer, but I will touch on the fact that Aaron Rowand is very likely going to set the market price for centerfielders. I think Andruw Jones and Torii Hunter will both wait for the ‘lesser’ player in Rowand set the market price for his tools and then they’ll ask for more.
Word is centerfielders are usually pretty capable of playing the other outfield positions.They say it’s not quite as difficult as making the move from centerfield to,say,catcher.The Oakland A’s were able to make room for 2 centerfielders in their outfield simultaneously.In fact,Rickey Henderson and Dwayne Murphy both won Gold Gloves for them.
And then,of course,there’s the problem that our ‘pretty good’ centerfielder becomes a handicap offensively against LHP.Why he gets a pass from the slappies here when other players (Rodriquez,Inge-Neifi Perez!) whose performance is Ruthian compared to Granderson vs. LHP are deservedly taken to task continues to be a mystery to me.
I wouldn’t call Rowand a ‘big name’ by any stretch.He’s virtually unknown outside of Chicago,Philadelphia,and among baseball geeks.But you do have a point that Jones and Hunter may let him set the bar.However,from where I’m looking he’s an extremely competent 2 way player who wouldn’t break the bank.Plus,the first time he kissed a wall he would become a fan favorite in Detroit in the mold of other ‘gritty’ players like Gibson or Higginson.In fact,I would expect that some on this very site would be touting his HoF virtues,similar to the worship we see for Curtis ‘Bionic Arm’ Granderson (who,believe it or not,I think very highly of.I just don’t understand the blind spot displayed by many of the otherwise very insightful observers here).
Looking at LF: we all have to think about what our in house options are and then whether we can UPGRADE, the cost of the upgrade and whether the cost justifies the amount of the upgrade.
For example, a full season of thames or hessman out there gives you average defense (C) and .250/25 homers. raburn out there gives you c+/B- defense and .270/20. Is it worth giving hunter 4 year/$60 mil to replace them – even if he hits .280/30 with B+ defense (it’s not A defense anymore, people)? We need to spend the money at the harder-to-replace positions, SS and C.
Tony Clark used the term last night that the young Diamondbacks’ players have ‘a high baseball I.Q.’ This team desperately needs a higher baseball I.Q. (The Mets are another example. Full of talent, but always pulling boneheaded plays).
I don’t know how that impacts the Pudge re-signing. On one hand, he’s a hall of fame catcher, on the other hand he never walks, carps more and more to the umps, and possesses an air of entitlement a la Sheffield that turns to petulance when he doesn’t get his way.
Well said Bob.
If we could get Rowand or Dunn (if his option isn’t picked up) for around $8 mil, I say go get either and stick him at one of the corner spots. Let Thames and Raburn be the backups.
Heck we could go get both and leave Guillen at SS and Dunn could play first.
Granderson
Polanco
Sheffield
Ordonez
Guillen
Dunn
Rowand
Catcher
Inge
or get either Castillo or Lowell like I want them to and get Dunn or Rowand + Francisco Cordero.
Give me dunn. I’ll take dunn. I want dunn.
For us to get Rowand or Dunn for $8M per year, we’ll have to throw in a time machine that lets them spend that money in 1998.
As for Dunn, I’m pretty sure he is not the kind of player Leyland or Dombrowski likes. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but I feel safe in saying neither would be interested in entering a winning bid for his services.
don – I like the logic in your post, but I don’t think Hessman has ever played outfield and nobody is going to get Hunter for 5 yrs/$60M. The guesses I’ve seen are already 5 yrs/$75-$80M and I think the media guesses tend to be the first offer a player gets before he accepts a bunch more.
Dunn has his good points. But he is painful to watch in left field. I’m not saying he’s as slow as Sean Casey. But just imagine what Casey WOULD look like patrolling Left and you’ve got a good idea of what Dunn looks like. Dunn makes Thames look like a gold glover, though to his credit Dunn has looked somewhat less inept this year.
Also, his home runs tend to come in bunches, even moreso than the average slugger, and he’s prone to extremely long droughts(richie sexson type), and he doesn’t adjust with 2 strikes, ever. He keeps swinging for the fences regardless of the situation.
Be prepared for a couple years into the contract before you see a sac fly from him.
Having said that, he would provide some added protection in the lineup and increase the Tigers overall run production.
Probably because splits have a tendency to vary. Like how Granderson hit LHP nearly 60 points better in 2006 then he did in 2007.
Marcus Thames is not an average defender. He’s slow, has no arm, and really doesn’t have a reason to even be put in the outfield. I’m surprised he hadn’t been moved sooner. He’s a below average outfielder, granted, he’s better then some. And then the fact that exposed over 500 AB’s, pitchers find weaknesses. And Mike Hessman is an infielder by trade and not athletic in the least (guys his size rarely are) so he’s not an answer full time, or even part time, as a LFer, no matter how easy of a defensive position it is. And defensive numbers from this past year have Raburn as being worse then Thames in LF.
Also, Adam Dunn can not be had for $8 million. Especially since he made $10.5 million this year and his option is for $13, there’s no chance in hell he doesn’t get near $18 million on the open market. And if you trade for Adam Dunn right now, it voids out his option, so you’d have to sign him to a contract anyways. So it’s either he’s in Cincinnati or he’s making a ton of dough on the open market.
And that’s why I get confused with this organization. What is not to like about a guy who’s career spread between his batting average and OBP is nearly .140 points (INSANE) and posts a career OPS of 900?
I think those guesses at the bidding for Hunter are predicated on the inflated offers he may receive from NY,LA,and Chicago or Boston teams.The fact is,however,not all of those 7 teams are shopping for outfielders,so at a certain point it becomes as much a buyers as sellers market.However,if the free agent market demands player X be paid Y amt of dollars,Mike Illitch should be prepared to ante up (which I think he is) to remain competitive.The facts are that the Tigers are one of 10 MLB franchises with >3M attendance as well as one of the 10 largest media markets in the US (and not counting Grand Rapids,Lansing,the tri-cities,etc.).This franchise is making money.It’s not the responsibility of anyone here to be miserly on behalf of the owner.
Myself,I think Rowand in particular is the perfect player for the farm field masquerading as a baseball stadium that’s Comerica.In fact,he (and Granderson as well) is the kind of outfielder who covers alot of ground who I remember being touted as the prototype when the park was built(unlike the statue of Marcus Thames in left field who should mandate covering the eyes of small children when balls are hit in his direction).I’m not naive enough to think that Rowand’s the kind of player to put a team on his shoulders (nor will anyone pay him that kind of salary),but it’s also true that he was on a winner in Chicago and now in Philly.I think he’d make a good piece of the puzzle.
Plus, with Sheffield supposedly getting a regular supply of days off next year, I think a Sheffield/Dunn DH platoon and a Thames/Dunn LF platoon makes a lot of sense. Granderson’s range makes up for a lot of fielding deficiencies. You could even give Guillen time at short and put Dunn at first against the toughest righthanders. He is fugly (even fuglier?) at first base, but I don’t think a couple games of it kills you. This all being said, I think the Tigers go after either Dunn or Renteria depending on who can be had for fewer prospects, and I think it is probably Renteria.
MLBTradeRumors is guessing that Rowand is going to go for 5/50 to 5/60. I think he ends up closer to 5/75 and out of the Tigers’ plans given that about 15 teams need a CF, but wouldn’t he look great in left for $10 mill? For the life of me, I can’t understand why any team would prefer Torii or Andruw to him.
I believe Granderson hit .160something against LHP this year.So,let’s see,.160+.60=.220something.You’ve convinced me.Bedard,Sabathia,Santana,et al will be saving their best stuff for him.
Bob, I don’t know if you got my point. It’s that splits are often based on such small samples over the course of one year that they’re prone to big swings year-to-year. Just like how Granderson’s swung down 60 points, it could very easily swing way up. If he hit .220 off LHP, he would’ve hit what? .320 on the season as a whole if his numbers vs. RHP stay the same? He doesn’t need to hit .300 off of each RHP and LHP. And that doesn’t even get into the fact that BA is the most prone to wild swings in either direction anyways. OPS is a much better scope to look through. But, sticking with batting average, Grady Sizemore hit .284 off LHP this year where as in 2006 he hit .214.
Again, big swings based on small samples.
Mike R,I understood your point about small samples.Pardon my snark.
While bolstered by the admittedly limited statistical evidence,my opinion of Granderson vs LHP is based primarily by watching Granderson’s futile attempts to hit LHP.Offhand,I can think of few All-Star quality players who displayed such Jeckyll and Hyde performance depending on which arm the pitcher threw with.Actually,none.
Granderson should be spending this winter enjoying the warm weather in Venezuela or Puerto Rico while working on that glaring deficiency in his game.When he returns to Lakeland in the spring,he should be tethered at the ankle to Al Kaline for round-the-clock instruction.He’s a AA player at best against LHP and he shouldn’t be learning during the 162 game season as he only harms the team,particularly at the leadoff spot where his weakness is exposed the maximum number of times.
I don’t buy the citation of Sizemore and his improved performance.They are two different players.Closing your eyes,clicking your heels together,and repeating “But Sizemore did it,but Sizemore did it…” doesn’t mean Grandy will.Until Granderson shows me something more against LHP,consider me a skeptic.
By the way,f**k the Yankees,and thank you Joe Torre for letting Rivera watch while the tying run (Grady Sizemore!) was wild pitched home.
(I wrote this comment once only to watch it disappear into the cybersphere.Pardon me if two variations appear)>
I wonder if Yorman Bazardo’s value will go higher?
Also could Rocco Baldelli’s value be lower?
DD seems to like injured players, also OF with 5 tools or close to it(Granderson,Maybin,Hernandez)
He isn’t Carl Crawford but I’m wondering what the Rays would want for him… I think he’ll be a FA soon He is 26 entering his p rime
Also I think if healthy can post a 20-20 season with 100runs/rbi and .300 average esp in our lineup
also might i add that with carl crawford bj upton delmon you ng and elija dukes and jonny gomes im not sure if they need a 6th OF
maybe trade em grilli and bazardo and a so-so prospect?
I wouldn’t hesitate to roll the dice on Baldelli,especially if he came as cheap as you proposed.He has everything except good health.Several years ago I thought he’d be a better player than Crawford,but he’s really been snakebitten.
It’s bittersweet watching them lose to our division rivals,but damn I hate the Yankees.Way to go,Joe.
Why? You don’t see the similarities between Grady Sizemore and Curtis Granderson?
Granderson’s career numbers: .280/.343/.493
Grady Sizemore: .283/.390/.488
Their only difference is that Granderson is a year older (and more raw when he came up through the minors, which is why he only had 400 or so fewer AB’s in the minors then Sizemore, who spent 3 more years in the minors because Grandy came from College, Grady from High school.
Their first full seasons in the majors are similar and they both are speed + power packages (I think Sizemore has more power, but both are legit 30/30 threats in their careers) and left-handed hitters. I don’t know how you don’t see the similarities and their growths. It’s not a matter of “clicking my heels” and “wishing Grady Sizemore did it. . .” like you may think.
Now, him batting leadoff is a completely different issue. He shouldn’t be leading off, regardless of his splits versus pitchers. Neither should Grady Sizemore.
Of course I see the similarities.That means exactly what as far as predicting future performance?Sorry,but thinking those similarities means they share the same destiny is tantamount to believing in magic,or ‘clicking your heels’,if you will.In the meantime,I choose to believe my lying eyes-Granderson looks helpless standing in against lefthanders.He should not be learning to hit them in major league games that count in the standings.
I actually used to share your conviction that Granderson shouldn’t be batting leadoff.Currently I think he’s perfectly fine there-against RHP.Against lefthanders,I’d bat him eleventh.
We should just send him back down to Toledo so he can learn to hit LHP. It’s not like he overcomes that deficiency by being the 2nd best defensive Centerfielder in the game or the fact that he still was a beast at the plate and an outstanding person who has a great work ethic. Down with Curtis!
Yeah,down with Curtis,send him to Toledo-that’s exactly what I wrote (actually,his performance against LHP is more suggestive of a AA player).Not only do you apparently not understand what I wrote,you seem to get a little irritable when your parents let you stay up too late.But your pique lets me think I know who somebody’s Tiger is.
He’s among the game’s elite-against RHP.That he performs so poorly against lefthanders is as bewildering to me as it probably is to him.If this was 2003 or 2004 I’d say fine,let him learn to hit them on the job.But the Tigers have reached a level where every one of 162 games is important in the standings.Granderson should be learning where a lot less is at stake (like winter ball and spring training,not Toledo,Mike),and sitting against LHP until he does.If Leyland was stubbornly keeping Perez (or anyone who couldn’t hit their weight) in the lineup to give away as many at-bats as he does with Granderson,this comment section would be filled with vitriol.But Granderson is a good guy (agreed) with a good glove (agreed) who owns RHP.That shouldn’t buy him a pass to carry a golf club to the plate against lefthanders.It makes him a platoon player.
Ok, Alex, I’l take analogies for a 1000. Oh it’s the Daily Double!
In Greek mythology, Achilles was a hero of the Trojan War, the central character and greatest warrior of Homer’s Iliad. Later legends state that Achilles was invulnerable on all of his body except for his heel. These legends state that Achilles was killed in battle by an arrow to the heel, and so an Achilles’ heel has come to mean a person’s only weakness.
Seriously, Granderson needs to hit .250 against lefties or all this stuff about him being potential HoFer or the game’s best centerfield has to stop. He is an excellent player, but a great boxer doesn’t have a glass jaw, a great decathlete doesn’t run the 1500 m in six minutes, a great golfer doesn’t chip like a nine-year-old. All he has to do is prove himself adequate against lefties, his strengths in his other areas make up for mere adequacy. I think the fear is that he might be uh, less than adequate.
I don’t think anybody is arguing that Granderson has to get better against lefties. But the one thing that has been consistent throughout Granderson’s professional career is that he has made adjustments to improve on his greatest problem areas. Last year he struck out way too much. This year he cut that number down by a quarter. His caught stealing rate wasn’t good last year and he goes 26 for 27 this year.
Give him an offseason and spring training to see what adjustments he makes.
Plus I think this year was a combination of him being bad against lefties, with bad luck, and the result was awfulness. His babip was ridiculously low against lefties (and ridiculously high against righties).
And what does this have to do with Pudge anyways.
And Bob – stop with the asterisks in the swear words.. And everyone play nice
You have a dirty mind,Bilfer.
Fork the Yankees.
I duno, I’ve suggested this a few times.
Inge – who hits lefties well bats leadoff and Grandy ninth when their is a lefthander on the mound.
With our predominantly right-handed lineup one would think on most nights we kill them, which we do and struggle more against rightys.
The big thing thats got everyones head screwed on backwards mine included for a brief period is that plain and simple Pitching WINS.
If Granderson drops off next year and so does Magglio and Polanco, but we have Jeremy Bonderman and Nate Robertson finally put together whole years that would make us proud we probably would have just as good if not a better record.
It all hinges on those two I think and esp the bullpen.
Of course it would be nice if Grandy could learn this winter, and Inge could rethink what he is doing at the plate (or stop thinking all together for that matter and just swing at strikes) and Shef could be healthy and we could pick up a Rowand or Lowell thats all fine and Dandy-Grandy but it all hinges on the guys who let the ball go.]
Also let me add Zumaya and Rodney b/c even though Rodney has shown streches where he has been really good if I have to go through another April of his from last year I’d like them to ship him off to the moon to collect his balls.
And even though Zumaya has a great fastball and curve when they are right, he seriously needs to work on command and also maybe develop a change and drop the curve b/c the last thing we need is him on the DL.
I’m of the school of thought that the thread goes wherever the thread goes.
Oh, I understood it. I was just being facetious because we clearly don’t agree and I was finished just re-stating our positions over and over and over. Sometimes my parents let me stay up a little later when I learn to just walk away from a discussion that’s going no where fast to defuse the situation.
One of the nice thing about forum threads is to see where it leads. Conversations naturally evolve; its not a bad thing. So I recommend NOT forcing folks to stick to the headline as a topic, but rather to use it as a starting point. Besides, we’re still talking about Tigers. Now, if we started talking about all the unconstitutional things Bush has done, I can see smacking it down (try http://www.lp.org for that).
Also, I participate in forums like this that cover a wide range of topics and BY FAR we here are the nicest/friendliest lot.
Please, no politics. Barf!! puke, vomit!!!
Personally I have no desire to sift through comments about Left/Right wing conspiracies, who really killed JFK, the 2nd coming of Jesus, etc. This is a baseball blog, and there are plenty of things about baseball we can discuss. It’s been my experience that sticking to the topic thread tends to keep people focused and the quality of the commentary much higher than in open forums where it can regress to a pretty low level.